Curse

Kinn · Jul 03, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Three, if you wish to have a more challenging game then make the game more challenging yourself, (don't use ursan, take only six skills, use only half your attributes) DO NOT ask ANET to alienate their largest customer base to just to make a few elitist have an more enjoyable game.

I hear this "argument" a lot around here, and it's never valid. Consider the people who want a challenge. I'm guessing 9 out of 10 of those people are not going to find any satisfaction in having to deliberately handicap themselves to create the challenge. They want the challenge to be presented to them, and the fun lies in working out strategies, and using all available tools at their disposal - with no arbitrary restrictions that they have to invent - to overcome the challenge.

You cannot expect players to have to create their own abitrary rules and restrictions in order to find a playing environment in which they can have fun. It just doesn't work like that.

Dragonire · Jul 03, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

One, what makes it hard for some player makes it extremely hard or impossible for other players.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Two, extremely hard or impossible games don't sell, they are called simulations and they make up the smallest percentage of the gaming industry.

I believe it's possible to have a balanced game that isn't insane to play. See Starcraft for example. Prophecies was a massive hit and it was relatively challenging in comparison to now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Three, if you wish to have a more challenging game then make the game more challenging yourself, (don't use ursan, take only six skills, use only half your attributes) DO NOT ask ANET to alienate their largest customer base to just to make a few elitist have an more enjoyable game.

A better way would be to have plenty of content to satisfy both groups of players. I don't see imposing artificial challenges as something that would be widely used. It just doesn't have that sense of accomplishment that you get from giving it your all on something tougher to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Customer want to relax, customer want to get the most for their money, and with the real world economy still declining ANET might want to take that into consideration before making changes that will most likely upset their largest customer base.

Hmm, I'm not too sure what the real world economy has to do with this. If it is related to declining budgets spent on video games, I think this would actually benefit GW. For those who have bought it already, it's already been paid for. If not, the game is still one of the highest entertainment value per dollar spent in my opinion.

If GW's largest customer base is composed of casual players, I doubt that a few skill nerfs and whatnot would seriously deter them from playing. Heck, I'm not too sure all of them know how the changes would affect the game. Maybe it's just that I can't see true casual players grinding for, say, the Norn title for a skill to rampage all over the higher-end areas of the game. On that note, why would such players play in hard mode rather than normal if they can't handle it without overpowering skills? It's the same content. If it's for the rewards, then... =/ Rewards should be earnt, not handed out.

Stockholm · Jul 03, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I hear this "argument" a lot around here, and it's never valid. Consider the people who want a challenge. I'm guessing 9 out of 10 of those people are not going to find any satisfaction in having to deliberately handicap themselves to create the challenge. They want the challenge to be presented to them, and the fun lies in working out strategies, and using all available tools at their disposal - with no arbitrary restrictions that they have to invent - to overcome the challenge.

You cannot expect players to have to create their own abitrary rules and restrictions in order to find a playing environment in which they can have fun. It just doesn't work like that.

Well, it works the other way aswell, you can't expect 19/20 players to missout on part of the game just so 1/20 can be satisfied.

Torabo · Jul 03, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I hear this "argument" a lot around here, and it's never valid. Consider the people who want a challenge. I'm guessing 9 out of 10 of those people are not going to find any satisfaction in having to deliberately handicap themselves to create the challenge.

And please consider the people who don't want a challenge that will take hours straight without breaks. Not to mention the hours spent just getting a group that wants to do a particular area at a particular time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

They want the challenge to be presented to them, and the fun lies in working out strategies, and using all available tools at their disposal - with no arbitrary restrictions that they have to invent - to overcome the challenge.

Fine, I'll present thee with the hardest challenge of it all, there's this skill called Ursan Blessing. Learn to deal with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

You cannot expect players to have to create their own abitrary rules and restrictions in order to find a playing environment in which they can have fun. It just doesn't work like that.

So....I can't expect you to create an arbitrary rule and restriction for yourself even though you just did, and called it 'don't use ursan'... and you'd rather it be an enforced rule for everyone because you lack the will power to do so yourself so you can have fun?

Besides, who are you do determine if an opinion-based argument is valid or not in this case? Pretty much all the arguments here are based on personal opinion, and not only hard cold facts. Although I'd prefer UB not to be nerfed until they actually fix the real underlying problem with PvE, which is the imbalance of profession efficiency in each area, I don't find the arguments from either side _INVALID_.. I may not AGREE with some of the arguments... but they're not invalid....they just tend to involve 'solutions' I don't like (aside for the trolls, or the ones that think their opinion is everything)

Tyla · Jul 03, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

So....I can't expect you to create an arbitrary rule and restriction for yourself even though you just did, and called it 'don't use ursan'... and you'd rather it be an enforced rule for everyone because you lack the will power to do so yourself so you can have fun?

People find Ursan boring. It's just a Warrior with no counters and no margin of error based on grinding a title.

As for gimping yourself, let's say someone is running 1500 meters. They don't find it challenging any more. Hey, I know, that guy should cut one of his legs off, maybe then he'll find it more challenging!

Making the game harder for yourself doesn't make it more fun. Taking the stongest possible thing while staying with your playstyle, and the bitch role being easy as 1-2-3 (In a literal sense), isn't fun. At least not for me. The least that should be done is removing the strength of the skill being determined by the title itself.

Torabo · Jul 03, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

People find Ursan boring. It's just a Warrior with no counters and no margin of error based on grinding a title.

As for gimping yourself, let's say someone is running 1500 meters. They don't find it challenging any more. Hey, I know, that guy should cut one of his legs off, maybe then he'll find it more challenging!

Making the game harder for yourself doesn't make it more fun. Taking the stongest possible thing while staying with your playstyle, and the bitch role being easy as 1-2-3 (In a literal sense), isn't fun. At least not for me. The least that should be done is removing the strength of the skill being determined by the title itself.

Ignoring for a moment if making something more challenging for yourself is the same as cutting your own leg off... what you're saying is you'd rather SOMEONE ELSE cut your leg off for you just so its not you doing it for yourself.

Stockholm · Jul 03, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

SOME People find Ursan boring. It's just a Warrior with no counters and no margin of error based on grinding a title.

As for gimping yourself, let's say someone is running 1500 meters. They don't find it challenging any more. Hey, I know, that guy should cut one of his legs off, maybe then he'll find it more challenging!

Making the game harder for yourself doesn't make it more fun. Taking the stongest possible thing while staying with your playstyle, and the bitch role being easy as 1-2-3 (In a literal sense), isn't fun. At least not for me. The least that should be done is removing the strength of the skill being determined by the title itself.

There I fixed that for you, you see not all people share your views on Ursan.

Tyla · Jul 03, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

And that's exactly what you're trying to say with making it harder for yourself.

You are the spectator, I am the runner.
I find the run boring and not challenging at all. You suggest for me to cut my leg off (Gimping myself), for more challenge.

That doesn't change the challenge. That just nullifies me.

Quote:

Ignoring for a moment if making something more challenging for yourself is the same as cutting your own leg off

In the case of a game of movement, it is. Running requires legs. With only one leg it's difficult to do so.

Cutting your leg off is making it more challenging for you. How it can't be is beyond me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

There I fixed that for you, you see not all people share your views on Ursan.

Well I really do feel sorry for whoever thinks mashing their keyboard is fun. Sounds like they have the Rage Virus or something. And yeah, some people do. Some people don't. Why would it need a fix if it only needs common sense to look at it and understand it that way?

Oh, and by the way... It's also motivation. Without a goal there would be no motivation.

I personally find school boring for the same reason people find certain work boring, but the end goal is the want.

Stockholm · Jul 03, 2008, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Well I really do feel sorry for whoever thinks mashing their keyboard is fun. Sounds like they have the Rage Virus or something.

There you just described about 60-70% of the worlds video games ( and they sell well)
Each to his/her own, thank God that we all have diffrent views and opinions on things.

Torabo · Jul 03, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And that's exactly what you're trying to say with making it harder for yourself.

You are the spectator, I am the runner.
I find the run boring and not challenging at all. You suggest for me to cut my leg off (Gimping myself), for more challenge.

That doesn't change the challenge. That just nullifies me.

Actually no
YOU suggested the gimping.
All I suggest is that you gimp ONLY yourself instead of EVERYONE since you wanted the challenge.

DreamWind · Jul 03, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

Pretty much all the arguments here are based on personal opinion, and not only hard cold facts.

The cold hard facts are that Guild Wars has went from an epic somewhat balanced game to a completely inbalanced grinder game over the course of 2-3 years. The only reason the game is set up this way today is because they want everybody to buy Guild Wars 2. There are no opinions involved.

Torabo · Jul 03, 2008, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The cold hard facts are that Guild Wars has went from an epic somewhat balanced game to a completely inbalanced grinder game over the course of 2-3 years. The only reason the game is set up this way today is because they want everybody to buy Guild Wars 2. There are no opinions involved.

Whether something is balanced or not is an opinion in itself. Everyone's opinion on whether something is balanced or not is different. I mean, we're not talking about whether the two sides of a weighing scale is equal here... there's too many factors involved.

However, the fact that it now has a lot of grind (titles) versus none before is cold truth, and that they want everybody to buy GW2 is *most likely* fact (unless they were crazy). Unless the developers themselves give you a reason why its setup this way now.. you can only speculate... while it may most likely be truth, its still an opinion.

Kinn · Jul 03, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

And please consider the people who don't want a challenge that will take hours straight without breaks. Not to mention the hours spent just getting a group that wants to do a particular area at a particular time.

Fine, I'll present thee with the hardest challenge of it all, there's this skill called Ursan Blessing. Learn to deal with it.

I don't have to "deal" with anything. Where exactly did I say I care about nerfing Ursan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

So....I can't expect you to create an arbitrary rule and restriction for yourself even though you just did, and called it 'don't use ursan'... and you'd rather it be an enforced rule for everyone because you lack the will power to do so yourself so you can have fun?

Uhhh...what? Where did I say anything of the sort?

For your information, I use Ursan because it's there and it gets the job done. It's a tool I use to overcome a challenge.

I don't quite understand how you managed to misread my post so badly. The whole point of my post wasn't to bitch about Ursan, it's to explain the futility of the "If you find a game too easy, make it artificially harder for yourself" argument.

You are assuming that I care about Ursan, or that I am finding the game too easy, whereas all I was doing was making a simple generic point about games design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torabo

Besides, who are you do determine if an opinion-based argument is valid or not in this case? Pretty much all the arguments here are based on personal opinion, and not only hard cold facts. Although I'd prefer UB not to be nerfed until they actually fix the real underlying problem with PvE, which is the imbalance of profession efficiency in each area, I don't find the arguments from either side _INVALID_.. I may not AGREE with some of the arguments... but they're not invalid....they just tend to involve 'solutions' I don't like (aside for the trolls, or the ones that think their opinion is everything)

It's a rubbish argument. It's like the poster above said. Do you honestly feel that telling the bored, unchallenged 1500 metre runner that he needs to chop his right leg off in order to find a worthy running opponent is something that is going to be met with a positive response?

Savio · Jul 03, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Well, it works the other way aswell, you can't expect 19/20 players to missout on part of the game just so 1/20 can be satisfied.

This argument doesn't work because nowhere is it stipulated that buying Guild Wars guarantees you access to 100% of the content, nor is complete access mandatory to enjoying the game.

Torabo · Jul 03, 2008, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

Uhhh...what? Where did I say anything of the sort?

For your information, I use Ursan because it's there and it gets the job done. It's a tool I use to overcome a challenge.

Good for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I don't quite understand how you managed to misread my post so badly. The whole point of my post wasn't to bitch about Ursan, it's to explain the futility of the "If you find a game too easy, make it artificially harder for yourself" argument.

You are assuming that I care about Ursan, or that I am finding the game too easy, whereas all I was doing was making a simple point about games design.

If you absolutely didn't care about something, you would not post in a thread about it, simple fact..... unless you're so bored and have nothing else to do in your life aside from posting about something you don't care about.

Also, you need better writing skills then. Aside from the fact that your post does not in anyway look like 'just a post about a simple game design, (which is silly because the game market would be *quite* different if all people wanted were hard challenges in everything) arguing the 'futility' of an argument is just an exercise in futility itself. The fact that its an 'argument' is that.. its.. kinda arguable :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

It's a rubbish argument. It's like the poster below said. Do you honestly feel that telling the bored, unchallenged 1500 metre runner that he needs to chop his right leg off in order to find a worthy running opponent is something that is going to be met with a positive response?

yes, because if he finds it too easy and boring, he should go do something else rather than complain about the sport being too easy for himself. I find YOUR argument rubbish, but then, that's MY opinion, and not YOURS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

This argument doesn't work because nowhere is it stipulated that buying Guild Wars guarantees you access to 100% of the content, nor is complete access mandatory to enjoying the game.

And no where is it stipulated that the game will remain challenging years after release.... and I can think of a gazillion other silly things that aren't stipulated anywhere.

Its just a simple mentality, as I've explained in a different post somewhere. When people pay a recurring fee for something, the mentality is most of them don't expect to enjoy it all anyway. But when they pay a one-time fee for something, they tend to expect to be able to enjoy it all eventually.

Age · Jul 03, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The cold hard facts are that Guild Wars has went from an epic somewhat balanced game to a completely inbalanced grinder game over the course of 2-3 years. The only reason the game is set up this way today is because they want everybody to buy Guild Wars 2. There are no opinions involved.

They keep going this way as you can still use the permasin those without won't bother to buy GW2 as I am having strong reservations about it.It is getting harder to fill one of my goals.

kostolomac · Jul 03, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinn

I hear this "argument" a lot around here, and it's never valid. Consider the people who want a challenge. I'm guessing 9 out of 10 of those people are not going to find any satisfaction in having to deliberately handicap themselves to create the challenge. They want the challenge to be presented to them, and the fun lies in working out strategies, and using all available tools at their disposal - with no arbitrary restrictions that they have to invent - to overcome the challenge.

A.net made a place like this , you click on the little boat and choose Great Temple of Balthazar , any arena there is much more challenging than pve ever was , is and will be no matter which skills A.net nerfs or buffs. Fighting an AI enemy can never be challenging in the long run. Those who don't wanna accept this little fact and want "challenging" pve are those who are ruining the game. GW's design is rather simple : PvE-casual fun , PvP-challenging fun. A.net can't make pve more challenging for the older players without making it significantly harder for those who are beginning the game. And those who just bought the game are enabling us to play it too.

Stockholm · Jul 03, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

This argument doesn't work because nowhere is it stipulated that buying Guild Wars guarantees you access to 100% of the content, nor is complete access mandatory to enjoying the game.

And nowhere does it say that GW will provide unlimited challenges to those who have finished the game either, does it?

There has to be a balance between offering challenges for those who do nothing but play GW and those who play for the fun of it as a recreation.

Savio · Jul 03, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

And nowhere does it say that GW will provide unlimited challenges to those who have finished the game either, does it?

There has to be a balance between offering challenges for those who do nothing but play GW and those who play for the fun of it as a recreation.

I never stated that there should always be a challenge. And implying that good players spend all of their time playing Guild Wars is a nice insult but unfortunately not true. Nice try though.

Stockholm · Jul 03, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

I never stated that there should always be a challenge. And implying that good players spend all of their time playing Guild Wars is a nice insult but unfortunately not true. Nice try though.

C'mon you know as well as I do that the good players don't bother with forums, only the mediocre ones like us two come here.